Can Michael Jackson ‘beat’ Rudyard Kipling to ‘it’?
TweetOH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
The Ballad of East and West —- Rudyard Kipling (1865–1936)
Time and again, Kipling’s Ballad of East and West comes to life when people adopt intransigent positions about culture(s). Numerous critics have also taken a pause to look beyond what had been analyzed as Kipling’s prejudice and imperialism. Slowly, it emerges that the East-West realities get replayed not just in the lands of the previously colonized but also in Euro-American societies. This is because significant Afro-Asian migrant populations and their subsequent generations have emerged to challenge issues of race, identity and multiculturalism.
I arrive at this question through the demise of the legendary pop star Michael Jackson. The news of his death was uncannily received in the same manner as the passing away of Princess Diana, Rajiv Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto. Time seemed to stop for a second as the news sunk in globally. While they were all celebrities and some had more in common with the others lives, it is how regardless of one’s own cultural background they felt that they had lost someone they knew very well. Such was the power of the images of these personalities.
Michael Jackson is however distinct among these icons. He was a pop star, musician, dancer and composer, had millions of fans across nations and continents, truly a trans-national following. Jackson’s performances have been aped reverentially by artists across the world including India. Numerous members of the Indian film fraternity paid tribute to the departed artist. In the global adulation that followed his death, how do we sift what Kipling had referred to as the East-West conundrum?
While several from the East did actually sit up and take note of the star’s passing away, in his lifetime they frowned upon his music. It was not ‘ours’ they argued! These are several whom one would term otherwise ‘broad-minded’ people who take objection to people from the ‘East’ taking an interest in ‘Western pop/rock’ music. I have come across some instances myself when a compatriot in a worried tone asked me ‘how can you listen to Madonna?’ I beg your pardon. What is the problem in listening to Madonna? In my compatriot’s analysis, her kind of music was not part of Indian culture. Since his origins were more in north India, he preferred any variant of Hindustani sangeet or even classical Hindi film music. Pass! But Madonna had failed in his perception!
Likewise, I was with another colleague listening to the song ‘American Pie’, the cover version sung by Madonna. My colleague shook her head rather disapprovingly. Her judgement was that ‘there was nothing in this music!’ The inference was that this is indeed inferior music compared to our classical musical traditions. This time the colleague was from the south and she too measured ‘American Pie’ against our Carnatic musical traditions. Madonna had failed again in her perception.
I tried to figure out the reasons for my colleagues distancing themselves from Madonna. First of all, it could be that she is a ‘Western’ icon. Second the type of music. It was clear that my colleagues were unimpressed with the music. The very manner and tradition of western pop seemed to be wrong. Indian classical traditions had an aura of almost religious respectability whereas these pop songs were rebellious to say the least, if not even castigated as downright “vulgar” in some way, at least sometimes their video versions.
I differ with both my colleagues. How can you not lend a ear, even in passing, to numbers such as “Like a Prayer’, ‘Papa don’t Preach’, ‘Evita’ ? How can I not be moved, for instance, by Michael Jacksons We are the World song written for famine relief in Africa? Did not dozens among our generations grow up on, to name a few, ‘Boney M’, ‘Abba’, ‘Pink floyd’ and ‘Dire Straits’? Is there no ‘sound of music’ in them?
Do we need the fine data or the historical weight of the classical musical compositions to appreciate music? Is it not just the discerning ear and the appeal of the music to the heart and mind that makes for a catchy number? Tastes indeed differ but I refuse to be snobbish about someone else’s popular music traditions. As a friend described, what my colleagues missed noting was that both music (and dance) are universal languages and both classical and popular genres can help build bridges. Even within the Indian pop music scene there have been several cross-overs where classical musicians have rendered some very popular hits.
I have the greatest adoration for our cultural traditions. Our musical heritage (both classical and popular) is a source of inspiration. All I know is that what is different from my very own or what one may call ‘their very own’ does have some value. Perhaps great value. Each tradition, Each culture and Each performer/performance bring something unique to us. I suggest that we own that up. We do so in such a manner that people are ever in doubt about Kipling’s lines and perhaps he always gets disproved.
Perhaps the development of Indi-pop, re-mixes and numerous such variants both in India and the Indian diaspora is the answer to Kipling’s challenge. Besides the jazz-yatra’s, there have been numerous attempts at fusion music between the homeland and its diasporic population, a form of reverse export to the Euro-Americas. Take, for example, the attempt of the South Asian migrant populations in Britain in the form of the ‘Asian Underground‘ to blend elements of western dance music and the traditional music of their home countries. As a result of their efforts, South Asian music began to influence the UK’s pop mainstream. So, music is like a mighty river flowing both east and west! ***
Again, several are scandalized at the very mention of ‘re-mix’ music as to what it seems to have done to the original but is that not how ‘tradition’ lives on as fusion and synthesis of diverse strands from multiple imports/sources of origin. It ultimately boils down to the listeners choice but lets not narrow down those choices in the name of our tradition, culture and heritage. Precisely because these have been very absorbent and all-encompassing and richer for it. Its not the exclusion of musical traditions that we need to think of but their ‘complimentarity.’ For each tradition has its time, place and meaning.
Michael Jackson’s memory will continue to live on. His music will inspire generations of youth to come. It will cross national, religious, racial and several other cultural boundaries. How we respond to it is a matter of choice? In uniting the world through his music, MJ has thrown the gauntlet at Kipling .
If we see ourselves as throwing open the catalogue of world music to our young ones with a deep knowledge of our classical/pop traditions, they will grow with the knowledge of the choices available and the fundamental oneness of melody as that of human creation. Alternately, they will grow up as closed minds confirming what Kipling has charted out. I for one am for the former course. The floor is open. Lets turn on the music and the dance begin. R. I. P. MJ !
– – –
*** Some interesting readings:
The dawn of Indian music in the West[music]: Bhairavi
by Peter Lavezzoli
(New York: Continuum, 2006)
Indian music and the West
by Gerry Farrell
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1997)
Btw, i had just one common doubt.. any one who is from carnatic / musical / historical background can clarify..
I had basic introduction to instrumental music during my school days.. in that, the musical notes are the same 7 swaras, starting as c,d,e,f etc.. the notes are similar to “sa, ri, ga, ma…”
How come both western and indian musical notes have such starkling resemblance?
Nice discussion and very nice article.
One thing I observed is Western Pop genre is a very appealing and kind of gets adapted very soon because it is easy on ears. Naturally it might have appealed to Indian ears very much. MJ undoubtedly unlocked Indian markets to the western music labels. MTV of course also contributed. Why do we not have as many takers for Hard Rock in India?
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. – Charles Darwin
Just like what Senthil is worrying every culture in the recent past was affected by western culture to the extent that it put the native culture in the path of extinction. Take Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, India, Korea, China, Malaysia and Indonesia.
Luckiest and most happy are those who take best of both worlds, fuse and enjoy them. Unlucky are those who rant that it is unnatural.
I often think what would be Indian cooking in truest traditional sense – Chillies are not native and today I find almost all indian items using chillies. Same is Tomatoes. How would traditional food lover enjoy Madras Rasam minus Tomatoes? Same is the case with Cilantro, Samosas, Tea, Coffee… If I am OK with food, why not music.
Some thoughts…
@ Senthil,
I would be really stupid to say that India did not have a culture before Alexander.My point was not belittle Indian Culture but to drive thru the point the our culture has been amalgamated with other culture.
Vamsi has raised an excellant point about the food.I have eaten traditional Tamil cuisine once but I have to accept that even thought it was great I missed the taste of Chillies etc ,So after some time we bend the culture/Civilisation based on the majority’s taste and interests.So similary we need to accpet that Western to needs to be amalgamted with our civilization.
With respect to past 300 years what is percievable loss of culture are u talking about ? Speaking English or changing our dress?I guess then we shoud not be using a computer/Blog/etc as they were invented by West (unless there is some proof that Vincent Cerf or Charles Babbage had their orgnis in India).We shoud go back to Ola Chuvadi and achu aani…Do you think that is feasible?
I think you have misunderstood Sukumar’s comments..I dont think he as rejected anything that is Native ..He has just mentioned we need to accept the change as part of culture and try to integrate it (I hope I have understood that correctly)
Folk is deft not dying because of western music ..it is dying because of our apathy towards the art.If Carnatic and Folk can survive for 1000 years togther..why cant Western and Classical or even Folk for that matter ?
Thanks Vamsi. Superb pointers all the way in your comment. Indeed, not just for hard rock, there are almost no takers for heavy metal. Very relevant thought there, ‘easy on the ear.!’ So there is something there in that music/western pop, its not as if ‘there is nothing!’ 🙂
Regarding “Luckiest and most happy are those who take best of both worlds, fuse and enjoy them. Unlucky are those who rant that it is unnatural.” Well-said!
Vamsi,
/** One thing I observed is Western Pop genre is a very appealing and kind of gets adapted very soon because it is easy on ears. Naturally it might have appealed to Indian ears very much. MJ undoubtedly unlocked Indian markets to the western music labels. MTV of course also contributed.
**/
Easy on ears? For whom? Not to everyone.. we cannot generalise it, and say “It should appeal to every indian”.. this is where the problem lies.. You can watch MJ’s music and like it.. but why should the whole india be expected to be appealed by it?
/** Why do we not have as many takers for Hard Rock in India? **/
Why do you want to market Hard Rock in india? and why do you want as many takers for it? This is also another problem..
You like hard rock, and you expect everyone to take it.. and if any one doesnt, then you accuse them of Narrow minded, biased etc.. the same attitude, that i pointed out in this article of abdul..
Do you realise, that even the conservatives doesnt come and prevent the liberals from watching western pop genre.. but its the liberals, who is infringing on the ordinary indians and conservatives..
/** Luckiest and most happy are those who take best of both worlds, fuse and enjoy them. Unlucky are those who rant that it is unnatural.
**/
This is what i call a colonial mindset.. To utilise everything for our own selfish pleasure, without ever considering the traditional value, or the larger social sentiment.. Take for example, the case of madonna, as pointed out by abdul.. many album of hers are obscene, vulgar, or sexy.. and you say, madonna should be appreciated.. and appreciate what? Is there any rule that only if music is accompanied with sexy scenes, it will be enjoyable..? IT is an example of the western culture, where women and her body is seen as a consumable product, and used extensively for marketing.. and our liberals like priya would call it as height of women’s right and freedom..
first of all, whether its western or eastern culture or music, it is NOT a private property, to take it for granted, and do whatever we want.. ITs not a kitchen item, where we can mix different things together and taste it..
Culture is an evolution of the societal habits, and music is an manifestation of that culture.. Please understand that culture and music are NOT for enjoying in india.. culture is for civilising society, and music is for expression.. for village folks in india, its the expression of the relations, joys and sorrows.. and for the carnatic music, it is for the expression of devotion and bhakti to the ultimate god..
/** It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. – Charles Darwin
**/
In Indian raj dharma, one of the main duty of a king is to protect the weak.. The westerner colonisers might have seen everything from survival point of view.. we need not do the same..
Also, the changes in a civilised society, changes dont occur randomly… it takes mostly by external aggression, and partly by government policies..
Also, music is not a product, and hence there doesnt come the question of darwin’s theory..
Karthick,
/** I would be really stupid to say that India did not have a culture before Alexander **/
Thanks.. but what was the indian culture before alexander? could you pls point out a couple of that?
also, what exactly does alexander brought to indian culture? (history shows, that he did not cross the indus river fearing large elephant fleet of nanda dynasty)
The reality is no one knows what exactly is indian culture, because it is never taught in school books.. we often debating in too generic terms.. i feel, its time to go in specific details..
/** With respect to past 300 years what is percievable loss of culture are u talking about ? **/
I have already listed out some of those culture that we lost in my earlier comments.. hope you would have read..
/** Speaking English or changing our dress? **/
I think, we had this discussion on language in earlier post written by sukumar.. (i think, in imagining india)..
Regarding dress, yes, its also one indication of cultural change.. pls look at the attitude of the urban elite liberals towards the rural folks.. those who wear white dhoti and shirt is being looked down upon.. those who wear dhavani is being looked down upon..
/**I guess then we shoud not be using a computer/Blog/etc as they were invented by West (unless there is some proof that Vincent Cerf or Charles Babbage had their orgnis in India).We shoud go back to Ola Chuvadi and achu aani…Do you think that is feasible?
**/
First of all, no single nation invented computers and every invention is based on previous inventions.. that’s a different case..
Are you saying that because we use computers/blogs etc, we should accept everything from the west as it is?
Hope, you would understand the difference b/w culture, life style and materialistic things..
/** I think you have misunderstood Sukumar’s comments..I dont think he as rejected anything that is Native ..He has just mentioned we need to accept the change as part of culture and try to integrate it (I hope I have understood that correctly)
**/
Sukumar’s comments is straight forward.. he says “Without western culture, we have to go back to caves”..
and secondly, i am not opposing the view that we need to accept the change.. but, the question is whether all changes should be accepted as it is without ever analysing it?
In this case of western music, should we accept the vulgarity and obscene method of composing music albums? (Indian film industry already accepted that is another matter)
Senthil,
Western Pop is not appealing to every one. No single music genre will be appealing to everyone. For something to get a critical mass and market, it needs to cross a threshold of acceptance. That is where western pop is. It has it’s influence. Rock’n’Roll influenced Shammi Kapoor, Krishna (Telugu). Disco influenced many stars like Mithunda, Rishi Kapoor , Kamal Hassan, finally break dances influenced Chiru, Prabhu Deva etc. Now it cannot be prevented because it has acceptance. My point is Hard Rock and Heavy Metal or even underground could not appeal to Indians (and many even in your so called singular entity “west” dot take every genre and accept it in millions). So, my reasoning is that some genres of western music is accepted globally and that is what we call ‘pop’. You kind of missed that point completely and say that I want hard rock should become accepted in India. Did I say that? Pl read my post completely. BTW I dont like hard rock.
With itunes and 99 cents songs, you can be a star of your own right. I dont know the business model, but I believe you can break even with just 10k downloads which is an achievable number if one has talent irrespective of the genre. That is a long tail model I guess.
Madonna, I love her – both for her beautiful voice, excellent packaging, rebellious lyrics and of course great body (yes sexy). Sexy for some is obscene for others. Most traditional dress Indian Saree is also considered most sexy of all attires by many. Also why do you think music is for divinity only. Then you did not understand Indian culture at all. Romance and Sex are part of our culture. Why do you take such a narrow interpretation of culture and music that they are not for the enjoyment. So anybody who feels happy watching a dance program (mano ullasam) are doing a mistake?
I quoted Darwin to drive a point that you cannot win by going head on with something that majority accepts. You can of course market it well – groom talent, use better channels and package it well so that our music also wins. Blame it on British or Zamindars, we cannot undo 300 years of their rule. But our future is in our hands. All I am saying is – adapt or extinct.
10 years back in Telugu films every movie had a folk song. Adapted well and it became a big hit. Now we cannot see it because film makers being what they are, repeated the same thing without innovating. And nobody cares for them. In this era of speed and fluidity, whoever innovates better will win.
Vamsi, Nice set of thoughts and useful pointers again. Cheers again for the argument on adaptation.
/** Folk is deft not dying because of western music ..it is dying because of our apathy towards the art.If Carnatic and Folk can survive for 1000 years togther..why cant Western and Classical or even Folk for that matter ?
**/
Karthick.. you are simply negating in defence of western music.. you need to substantiate your point..
the extinction of folk is itself a subject of deep study.. Its not just about music, but loss of a lifestyle and thought process associated with it..
Generally, folklore are the characteristic of rural (& probably tribal) music.. Unlike, the modern pop & rock musci, folks are NOT meant for enjoying.. Rather, it is a medium of expression of emotions, like joy, sorrow, etc..
I came from a rural background, and my initial years are in a typical rural atmosphere.. My first cognizable experience of folklore is through “Opparis’.. “Oppari” is a tamil word, used to denote folks sung on the event of death..
Till 1995’s (i think), “Opparis” are regular thing in our villages.. Now a days, its no more played in our villages.. (probably it may exist in other rural areas)..
Opparis are NOT pre-written, or pre-determined.. It occurs spontaneously, during the death event.. One would be surprised at the lyrics of this folk, which comes on the spot.. The lyrics are normally, either in praise of the deceased, or may mock at the decease, depending on the persons singing it 🙂 ..
Another popular form of lyrics is “Thaalaatu”, normally sung by mothers to make her baby sleep.. This would be very pleasing to hear, while opparis may not be tolerated at some times (due to extreme expression of sorrow)..
The content and meaning of both opparis and thaalaatu would be very rich, in many cases, the expression of experiences of the singers..
There is one more type of folks, that is sung during work hours.. this is normally sung to forget the hardships of the work.. I havent seen it directly.. but instead of the song, the workers would have interesting chat..
————————————————–
Now coming to how folks died down, its entirely due to the macaulay education, where the local customs are ignored and a western mindset is imparted.. my father’s grandma used to sing folks, but not his sister (who studied in schools).. Similarly the children of many of those folk singers are hesitant or shy of singing it..
To generalise it, the generation who studied in schools, have completely ignored the folks.. Thus the continuation of the collective skills gets broken, and the folk is completely forgotten in the subsequent generations..
————————————————————–
If we look at the history of tamil film music, the old movies are full of carnatic music.. then came the era of discothe, and club songs.. then directors like bharathi raja, moved the film shooting from indoor sets, to the rural villages.. Only during that stage, the rural folks, got to be used in movies.. The classical ilayaraja songs are inspired by the folk songs, but he wonderfully fused the carnatic and the folks in his composition..
We have to note that, in the three stages that i described, the first stage (ie musics of older movies) music are indigenous carnatic one….
the second stage (ie medieval era of tamil films) music are completely conquered by discothe songs and club songs, a thing of total western influence..
And the third stage (ie the era of ilayaraja), is again a fusion of village songs with carnatic raagams.. once again an indigenous evolution..
And finally to mention the fourth stage (ie, the current trends), we are witnessing a gradual collapse of carnatic raagams, and instead adopting western rock and pop songs..
The more terrifying change is the concept of fusion, where sweet classical songs are brutally killed in the name of remix…
Senthil, I believe you missed an important piece. Apart from RD Burman, it is Illayaraja who fused Western music with Indian music successfully. Source 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illayaraja Source 2) My personal music collection of Raja. All classic hits, most of them rich westernization.
In fact A.R Reheman did continue Raja’s style but blended Sufi music as well with of course richer instrumentation ( and sometimes ‘over’ percussion).
Senthil, your idea on folk songs is again very narrow. Request to cite some real sources with quotes. AFAIK, folk is for *all* emotions. You seem to make everything traditional noble.
Vamsi,
Thanks a lot for your insights. Most of which are spot on.
Senthil,
You have the habit of twisting people’s statements to suit your own inferences. Here is what i said
/*western lifestyle, western thought is every where. The only way to avoid is to crawl back into the caves take to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle. I am sure you won’t advocate that. In the same way, no one is advocating adopting everything western to the detriment of our indigenous things. Just because we listen to Madonna, doesn’t mean we abandon Maharajapuram. */
Please re-read this statement again. Where am i advocating that we abandon all our indigenous things? In fact i am arguing the opposite – adopting western things need not affect indigenous things. When i mentioned we can become a cave man, i obviously was exaggerating to make a point. Let me try to explain in a more straight forward way, which hopefully you won’t twist.
Do this – Try to convince 100 families from the nicer localities of Coimbatore like RS Puram
to move to a village where there is no electricity, no bulbs, no motor pumps, no schools offering modern education, no TV, no radio, no concrete houses – only brick houses allowed, no pasteurized milk, no phone, no mobile, no access to modern medicine, no air travel, no car, no bus, no van – the list of western inventions we have to exclude is a long one. I assume that your family will be amongst the first you will try to convince to adopt this lifestyle.
If you can accomplish that, please come back to this blog and report and then we can discuss about western lifestyle and Indian lifestyle.
Excellent Sukumar, this is exactly we should ask our Senthil to do. He himself should not touch PC for at least 1 week.
@ Senthil
On ur question on what was the culture before Alexander.I would like to write lots here but again we will be deviating futher from Abdul’ post so I dont want write anything here .
With regard to clothes …I guess one needs to change based on the prevailing norms rather than harpning to our traditonal routes….IF we still want to do it then we should probbaly follow Sangam culture…
While reading the Agananuru i got and insight into ancient Tamil dress code…where women did not cover their breasts with clothes.. and men wore only a dhoti…can we follow the same now…wont the moral police create a hue and cry on that….remeber the Sriya and Mallika instance?
You keep saying Madonna was vulgar her songs were Vulgar…I would suggest u vist a place called Kodungallur in Kerala…where there is a famous temple which they say was built by famous Tamil King Cheran Sengutavan(to refresh a bit he was brother of famed Ilangovadigal creator of Silapadikaram)…In this temple there is festival called Bharani in march /april were vulgar songs are sung in praise of the goddess….so i dont think we can have this holier than thou attitude about west….
@ Senthil,
I am not sure of u come to this conclsuin from my comments
“Karthick.. you are simply negating in defence of western music.. you need to substantiate your point”
All I said was folk was dying due to lack of patronage…..and dont feel need to substaniate till Chennai Sangaman none of this guys had a chance to showcase their talents… and folk does not stop with Oppari and Thalatu….
I dont have writeups in my support at the moment but will provide it too u soon..
@ Senthil
With respect to question on why Carnatic Music swaras and western music swaras a similar.. is because both have beem derived from Anilmal sounds
/** Western Pop is not appealing to every one. No single music genre will be appealing to everyone. **/
That is what i am also saying.. Its possible, that a section of people in india may not be appealed by the entire western music itself.. Why should we project them as Narrow minded, or why should we call them to appreciate madonno’s pop or MJ’s rock, when they do not get appealed by it?
/** You kind of missed that point completely and say that I want hard rock should become accepted in India. Did I say that? **/
Probably the ambiguity in your sentence may have lead me to interpret in the other way.. but i hope, you too understand my point..
/** Sexy for some is obscene for others. Most traditional dress Indian Saree is also considered most sexy of all attires by many. **/
It depends on how one sees, and how one wears the saree.. the concept of “Sexy” itself is an import of the west.. The term “Sexy” itself is denigration of the womanhood, and it indicates an attitude to see woman’s body, as an object of consumption.. Such an attitude may be suited for western people, but NOT for India.. Unfortunately, such kind of attitude has been part of the college culture, a mark of how our cultural values are degraded..
/** Also why do you think music is for divinity only. Then you did not understand Indian culture at all. Romance and Sex are part of our culture. Why do you take such a narrow interpretation of culture and music that they are not for the enjoyment. So anybody who feels happy watching a dance program (mano ullasam) are doing a mistake?
**/
Vamsi.. Romance and sex are normal thing in indian culture, untill christianity made it as “Taboo” during british rule.. But everything had a place and context here.. and btw, romance is different from the “Sexy” attitude..
Indian music is largely for divinity and does not have consumerist angle.. The artists were more focussed on expression of devotion, perfection of the music and performance.. That’s why, the carnatic music is so refined, and finetuned, eventhough it may not appeal common man..
Even in the case of village dramas, the focus is more on the story, rather than consumer point of view.. you can see like “Villu paatu”, “Ramayana dramas” etc.. they are NOT appealing to the current mindset.. they were full of songs, with less dialogue.. People of those days, understood these things, and watched it..
So, you cannot throw a music system that is not suited for market oriented commercialism, in to open competition, and then say “Either adapt or perish”..
Also, traditional indian music and Madonnas sexy albums are highly contradictory, and cannot co-exist.. Just like devotion and cheap lust cannot co-exist..
Please note that, “While people are free to see what they want, there should be a consideration for the section of people, who may NOT feel comfortable with sexy pop albums, and their sensitivities should be respected, which is NOT done now..
/** Blame it on British or Zamindars, we cannot undo 300 years of their rule. But our future is in our hands **/
Vamsi.. its not that we cannot undo.. but we are not willing to.. we may not undo everything.. but we can connect with our history and continue from where we are dislodged..
And yes, our future is in our hands.. but how are we going to shape it? are we going to emulate western lifestyle, or build our own?
There will be no end to this debate.. So i will end here..
vamsi..
/** Senthil, I believe you missed an important piece. Apart from RD Burman, it is Illayaraja who fused Western music with Indian music successfully. **/
Regarding the music, we are dealing mostly with current western pop/rock vs indian music.. if we see the discussion from starting, no one is complaining against western classical.. (Even in the abdul’s post, there is no grudge against western classical)..
I feel, if we understand this key point, our discussion would be objective..
I agree, that ilayaraja combined carnatic, village folks, and western classical music.. Even as per his statement, he has diluted all three to arrive at an indigineous composition..
But my point is that the main body of his music is indigenous (village lyrics with carnatic raagams), with western classical, applied only wherever necessary, and highly adapted.. he has just taken the polyphony concept, and used in our own way (in many cases used carnatic ragams in polyphonic playback)..
Instead of appreciating this indigenous content, we are always obsessed with westernisation.. that’s my core point..
karthick,
/** With regard to clothes …I guess one needs to change based on the prevailing norms rather than harpning to our traditonal routes….IF we still want to do it then we should probbaly follow Sangam culture…
**/
For every comparison, why should we always go back to sangam age.. My point is that after british domination, many indians abandoned their own life style, and adapted western life style, including dresses, habits etc.. So, its enough if we go back, till 300 years before, instead of sangam age..
/** While reading the Agananuru i got and insight into ancient Tamil dress code…where women did not cover their breasts with clothes.. and men wore only a dhoti…can we follow the same now…wont the moral police create a hue and cry on that….remeber the Sriya and Mallika instance?
**/
Karthick. During the times of “Aga naanooru”, what was the state of the europe? Its illogical for everything to go to ancient times, as though there is nothing indigenous after that..
Just going back 20-30 years, most men in rural side, wore “Kovanams” during farm work (hope, you know that) and dhoties at normal times, while ladies wore a lengthy saree called “Kandangi saree” covering their full body.. I came from such community, and has witnessed the same in my early childhood..
While i cannot resort to “Kovanams”, i should NOT have problem with dhoties.. that is the rationality behind my argument.. We had rich set of cultural values, and we can adopt our life style from our own..
Just see the red turbans by punes in collector office.. or the black suits by judges and lawyers.. I think even the western countries had abandoned that.. but we are still continuing that, a mark of the slavery..
/** You keep saying Madonna was vulgar her songs were Vulgar…I would suggest u vist a place called Kodungallur in Kerala…where there is a famous temple which they say was built by famous Tamil King Cheran Sengutavan(to refresh a bit he was brother of famed Ilangovadigal creator of Silapadikaram)…In this temple there is festival called Bharani in march /april were vulgar songs are sung in praise of the goddess….
**/
Karthick.. the kodungallur people did not start a TV channel, and market their life style.. The very comparison itself is illogical, and you are comparing a “Commercially” marketed obscene and vulgarity, with a tantric culture, followed by set of people, without hindrance to other sections..
I dont know the symbology behind the kodungallur temple ritual (like kaavu theendal).. probably archana may know about that.. From what i have read about that Bharani Festival, it appears to be continuation of a Tantric Culture.. Its a kind of spirituality, which we may not agree, but we need to respect their festival, which takes place once in a year, without disturbance to other cultures (as its neither marketed nor compelled over others)..
/** so i dont think we can have this holier than thou attitude about west… **/
i dont understand this logic.. whenever any cheap things happen in the west, we always search that in our culture, and then portray “We are NOT holier than they”.. Such kind of self-degradation is never done by any other country, NOT even the western people..
It seems, you are fine with “They are holier than us” attitude, but not “We are holier than thou”..
/** All I said was folk was dying due to lack of patronage…..and dont feel need to substaniate till Chennai Sangaman none of this guys had a chance to showcase their talents… and folk does not stop with Oppari and Thalatu….
**/
Karthick.. the oppari and thaalatu constitute major portion of folks.. I have personal experiences with folks, and hence i am stating that..
Folks are extinct, mainly because of the drastic change of people’s culture, and the social setup associated with it.. For eg, no mother today, sings thaalaatu, nor the opparis sung during death event.. The reason, there is NO cultural continuance carried forward to the next generation, because, the next generation was taught in macaulay education system, which shaped their mindset in western model, thus looking down upon their own culture followed by their own parents..
For other folk arts, like “Theru koothu”, the main culprit is the entertainment industry, and the medias.. theru koothu appeared “Country” thing, to those who started watching films, and thus, because of people’s change in attitude, it lost the patrons..
The chennai sangamam, was more like a one day “Alms”, and it will not do anything constructive for them.. It will atmost, make the present artisans with some survival.. but the next generation would not pursue this.. a typical loss of one more culture and arts..
Instead, the government should have institutionalised it, and created conducive environment for them to perform at various places..
Sukumar,
I feel, the book “Decolonising History” would be a perfect reply to your comment western technological myths.. I feel, we can have detailed discussion after you have read that book..
The book can be downloaded from
http://psenthilraja.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/decolonisinghistory.doc
My few cents:
Western technology is different from western life style.. Technology is for enriching the culture.. for example, we are using MP3 Player to play our devotional songs..
btw, you have unjustly given the west as the sole owners of every technology, while most important inventions of mankind happened in the east.. wheel, gun powder, compass etc are invented by chinese.. In recent past, the colour television, handycam, etc are invented by japan.. these are eastern nations with cultural similarities with us..
/** Do this – Try to convince 100 families from the nicer localities of Coimbatore like RS Puram
to move to a village where there is no electricity, no bulbs, no motor pumps…………………………..**/
http://www.rediff.com///news/2009/jul/12nervous-china-may-attack-india-in-2012-defence-expert.htm
Sukumar.. Just at the very indication of imminent war, the first thing the urban elites will do is to flee to the remote part of the village, begging the villagers for asylum 🙂 … Let’s see, how they are going to live without all the things you mentioned 🙂
Senthil,
Why is it so hard to give credit where it is due? For any major inventions there are multiple claimants from everywhere. There are also some people who claim that every conceivable technology is there in the Vedas. That doesn’t mean anything. The credit goes to the people who market and popularize and make the technology usable.
Mp3 is a case in point. Apple didn’t invent the mp3 player but that is not relevant. It is their iPod that made all of us use a mp3 player. By extension, it is irrelevant, which culture first came up with something (it does matter for historical records, of course), it is who made it popular that matters. Another example – This is why even the numerals are called Hindu-Arabic numerals because Arabs had a major role in transmitting that knowledge to the western world.
95% of all major modern inventions are from the West. This is the truth (there are some exceptions which can be accomodated in the 5%). So to have a lifestyle that doesn’t include any western technology can happen only in someone’s dreams or as i said above in a village where there is no access to anything.
Hope that is clear.
Senthil,
You missed my point. I am asking you to convince your family and 100 other families from Coimbatore to move to the villages. And just in case, that is not clear, it is to prove to you that a lifestyle without any western technology is a delusion.
We are not talking about a war time dislocation of people. I am sure you will realize that during a war people are forced to do things that they may not do otherwise.
Please don’t go off tangent here.
Abdul – Good post.
If a person’s taste in music is evocative of who they are – bearing in mind that “who we are” changes with time – I respect their preferences. And then there are people whose taste in music is yet another expression of their inherent biases, prejudices & ignorance.
Let’s cast aside people who can’t appreciate anything that’s alien to them. Our worlds are as big as our minds. If they choose to cramp their minds & worlds, its their loss.
But about the other kind.
Music can be Dionysian or Apollonian. The former is a celebration of life, while the latter strives for order & peace. Most classical music forms – and some Jazz – are Apollonian. So people may choose 1 kind over the other, its a reflection of their personality.
As a person with strong preferences in music, I detest remixes. I wouldn’t call that fusion music, which can be ethereal.
And Madonna isn’t for everyone. MJ though, was a genius. His music – at least some of his songs – would be, should be appreciated by anyone who professes to have a liking for music.
Priya,
Thanks for a well thought-out comment. I agree that we should be dealing with people whose taste in music reflects a certain breadth and latitude.
The Dionysian/Apollonian classification is superb. While there are personality types and temparaments involved in the choice of one tradition over another, I suppose that at times the same person can be in different mood choices.
Remixes is a subject in itself and I understand your concern there. And yes, I did not have that in mind as fusion music by any stretch of imagination.
MJ seems to have brought vast populations together. And thats why I find reason to cheer him.
Abdul – Thanks. The classification of music as Apollonian/Dionysian is not mine, I borrowed it from Tamil/Malayalam writer Charu Nivedita. Charu hates Ilaya Raja since his music is Apollonian. I love it for the same reason 🙂 Well, tastes vary.
Priya,
Learnt 2 new words. I like 80% Apollonian & 20% Dinonysian. For illiterate in this terminology Details here
Kumaran – Yes, my preference would run along similar lines. Mostly Apollonian.
karthick,
I happened to hear the village folks few days back, and my opinion was re-inforced.. Village folks is more of an expression of the singer, rather than the music itself.. We can understand the true spirit of that music, only if we could understand the superbly crafted (yet simple) words of the song.. without the meaning, the village folk would be an uninteresting sound..
I remember in my child hood, how i hated Oppari.. But, few years back, one person from malaysia, released a book, containing collection of folksongs (lyrics only).. after reading this, i understood how rich are those songs in expressing the joys/sorrows/ (even hatred 🙂 )..
I think, the difference b/w POP and folk is that in the former, we enjoy the sounds in harmony,.. whereas, in the later (folks), we appreciate the content of the song, reinforced with a plain music..
That’s why, ilayaraja’s music is different from present day western music.. in the former, we enjoy the songs and its ragams which is appreciated at the intellectual level (by interpreting both music and content), while in the later, we enjoy the beats and orchestra.. there was some kind of abstraction in the former.. (this is just my observation.. )
Let me quote some examples..
“”இளமை என்னும் பூங்காற்று…”
Hope, you remember the above song.. Even though its highly romantic song , there is a “Nalinam” in it, and it doesnt look vulgar ..
Compare the above with the following..
“கட்டிப்புடி கட்டிப்புடிடா…”
“கல்யாணம் கட்டிக்கிட்டு ஓடிப்போகலாமா…”
There is a differerence, in the quality of the above songs..
If we consider the history of music in the past 50 years, the quality of music in general (both indian and western) has depleted considerably.. The west first started with introducing seducing elements, like sexy madonna etc, as a cheap marketing strategy..
And indian entertaining industry followed that..
Compare the level of obscenity, vulgarity, in classical films with the modern one.. we can understand the degradation..
The taste of people is influenced a lot by the quality of the music, particularly when there is no alternative..
Very few songs of tamil film industry maintains that quality.. Consider the song “ஒவ்வொரு பூக்களுமே..” .. it was so impressive, that many schools adopted it as prayer song..
We need such songs to maintain the standards of the music..
Btw, few months back, i posted MS’s song in my blog..
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/kurai-onrum-illai-by-ms-subulakshmi/
I was so surprised at the comments i got.. I could not decide, whether its the raaga, or the lyric or the devotion of MS, that attracts so many people towards it..
/** Let’s cast aside people who can’t appreciate anything that’s alien to them. Our worlds are as big as our minds. If they choose to cramp their minds & worlds, its their loss.
**/
Priya.. In that case, can we say, most of the westerners are “Kattupettis” (or narrow minded) 🙂 .. since they dont know anything about eastern music..
I feel, our world is as big as how deep we had understood the culture & history we live..
An interesting interview with pavan-k-varma by kanchan gupta published in pioneer .
http://www.dailypioneer.com/244684/Pavan-K-Varma-in-conversation-with-Kanchan-Gupta.html
I think, its appropriate to share it here..
Few excerpts from the above article.
There is a language of communication and there is a language of culture. The language of culture is a window to your history, mythology, folklore, proverbs, idioms, to your creativity … and it’s the language in which we cry and laugh. There is no contradiction between the two. Recent research shows that all those who are well-grounded first in their mother tongue pick up a foreign language that much faster.
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Look at the state of our humanities departments, not an original work! This is the country of Nalanda? Doctoral theses are being written with footnotes by foreign scholars. Look at the state of our literature, the man who won the Bharatiya Gnanpeeth told me his books sell less than a thousand copies. Look at the state, pardon my saying so, of even our book reviews. If you are in the UK, the country that colonised us, on the weekend any broadsheet will have 30 to 40 pages only on book reviews. Here we have leading newspapers who have dispensed with book reviews!
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Exactly! Look at the state of classical dance… I mean I have been a cultural administrator also. Top exponents of a parampara which goes back 3,000 years have to telephone friends for days before a performance to fill a hall when the entrance is free. Look at the state of classical music, the raga represents a 4,000-year-old parampara and it is a very delicate structure… the elaboration of the mood the gradual vistaar and the drut… Today we have eminent musicians performing like adolescent pop stars, catering to the lowest common denominator of an audience.
Now, I am not against pop culture. In Hyde Park — I have lived in London — when you have a pop music performance thousands go for it. But on the same day I have seen people queuing up from 11 in the morning at 20 pounds a pop to attend a performance of Western classical music. Mature civilisations nurture both. We cannot be reduced to a sterile simplicity that it is either popular culture or nothing else at all. So these are things we need to think about.